Mark Stewart commented on my post titled "My Faith - now" from the 7th, November the following:
" I have read this over and over and still do not understand what you mean by "but somehow I'm not able to get past the emotional hurdle of the Faith having been hugely discredited in me by my former church." "
I have in quite a number of conversations now been asked the question, "Ivan, what happened with you and the church?" Its a question I have only succeeded in answering somewhat with few people as it takes me ages and concentration, that I never have in public places, to answer. I need to formulate a coherent answer to it sometime, so here's a draft which is also a reply to Mark Stewart's comment:
Its quite unchartered area for me to describe as a large part of my issues with this specific church still remain unconscious and emotional. But to venture into it, I think it a very central factor how my faith was largely dependent on my social surroundings (as stated in the original post.) To this effect my faith dwindled when the social climate changed to my disadvantage - coupled and tripled with numerous other areas in which the church did not address the issues that I was struggling with, and when some of the issues did surface they were badly handled.
This is turning out very vague, isn't it? I think what I'm trying to say is that there was a lack of depth, or I just didn't encounter it. I was too busy leading worship and facilitating the youth to delve into both the spiritual realm and myself or to equip myself (or let myself be equipped) to handle life in- and outside the church. I guess you could say that my connection to God and myself wasn't maintained, wherefore I ran out of fuel. I neither knew who I was or who God was but instead I spent my time being distracted with moods (also in worship) and battling superficial sins.
In addition to this (or is it in relation to it?) I found myself stuck in a role in my relations to the youth group, in that I was always the irresponsible, late-coming, flirting guy you could safely get a laugh out of with a clever variatino of a "who're-you-flirting-with-now"-joke. And since I am no good for radical, life-changing spurts of personal growth, breaking out of this role was next to impossible - short of taking hour-long heart to heart talks with everyone there.
I also lacked rolemodels or a mentor. Questions about faith, love, application of faith, morality and ethics, theology, philosophy and mysticism (and the question of why there was never any victory in my heart, no swords and shields to brandish) were building up and I had no-one to turn to and no energy to read litterature about it. It seemed that all the sermons that I did hear (usually because I was leading worship in that service) had nothing to tell me about the abovementioned subjects and all the people around me hid their thoughts about it behind a thick coating of slightly varying adapted social etiquette. I don't remember having eye contact with anyone, much less did I spill my heart to anyone. All my input on existentialistic issues came from my school and my classmates - and you do (to an extent) believe what you hear!
So, based on the abovementioned, with reservations as I am not yet aware of all the factors that have come into play within me, I left into the 'real world' on my own with not much else than 2 friends and a family - not that that isn't much; they counted for a lot and still do!
Now, I am aware that the abovementioned bears alarming resemblance to the picture of a self-pitying, youthfully narcissistic ball of snot but I am painfully aware of many things I could and should have done differently to maintain myself on top of my activities and my responsibilities. I hope this is taken rather as an example of what can go wrong for people like me so that someone else might benefit from any increased perspective and understanding a reader has hopefully gleaned from my story.
In this way, I work on not hating (to ANY degree) the institution that is this church or anyone who attend it - I just don't go there because I still have a very bitter taste in me when I do go.
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13 comments:
Yes, yes and yes.
It sound like the typical sitation. You have a lot of questions, but no answers, and noone to ask. Trust in God, go tell about the gospel, seek God, pray to God. THAT is what you hear, but your questions are different. More intellegual. Or the guy you've approached just doesn't know anything about the situation,
because it's unfamiliar to him. So you always just get the usual answers that we have been taught as children.
But Ivan, we could have seeked help from more mature and wise men. Men that know how it is to be desperate, to loose faith and to woe women. A guy like Ruben Knudsen could have helped me, I believe, but he's just not a part of the Skywalk community... But I should have been less proud, if I should have done anything to deal with my lack of faith.
Yeah, I guess we could have gone to someone, but it is complicated by a handicapped ability on my part to make conversation with such men. True, they have gone through things that'd make them able to relate to our problems, but they seem much to boisterous about it and unwilling to listen. I feel like just another teenager with teenage problems that need quick fixing when approaching these vital subjects with these men. Often they reply to what they think I'm asking rather than letting me formulate myself and then addressing (rather than answering) my problem. At this stage my pride kicks in and I'm offended when they start pointing out basic things and making "Christianity 1.01"-points with no attempt to show me that they are aware that I, of course, know these things in advance. (I know its a ditch to fall into to forget the foundations though, yes.) I've long ago given up on quick answers and the long philosophies take long to express, listen to and comprehend. Its this time that is just never taken.
Yeah, I guess its pride, huh?! [smile] I just don't want to entrust them with the pearls of my heart, when they treat them as if they are plastic. -so I guess I've sort of given up trying to find that someone and settled with going through life without it.
I risk sounding hypocritical as I am in a similar situation but it sounds like (at least this is how it struck me--please forgive my maladroitness if I am horribly mistaken) but it sounds like you depended too much on the human factor or as you said, the social climate of the institution itself rather than the spiritual or at least personal aspect of your faith.
To be blunt: faith is believing in the intangible and therefore stop looking for it in people. This last part may be more of a message to myself than it is to you and i thoroughly apologize and fervently hope that you do not hate me; in fact, after I post this I'm sure I'll experience what I call "blogger's remorse" or the oh-my-I-should-have-kept-that-rambling-to-myself feeling. Therefore, I do sincerely apologize if I have offended by inferring or rather interfering where I shouldn't have, though I cannot nullify the truth that I see (specifically for myself, though you if you would like to interpret it that way as well) in the statements aforementioned.
And as a final comment to this rather confusing string of ideas, I definitely enjoyed this section
"the abovementioned bears alarming resemblance to the picture of a self-pitying, youthfully narcissistic ball of snot"
Some days, I can honestly describe my state of being/attitude in such away--it's a rotten feeling, but truthful nonetheless.
Anon.: I don't (and probably won't) hate you, but it sure seems my sister does! [haha - dun worry about it, just try not to get in her way.. ;]
But yeah, faith is believing in the intangible, but then again - if I weren't myself I certainly would classify myself as a victim. My being myself (inconveniently) nullifies my right to do so, which is why I state the case without reading the verdict. I know, I know, "my being myself nullifies my right to do so" excactly 'cos I have the power to change it/fight it/influence it which is what I'm doing. In fact, my life right now is (mostly) about changing myself and growing into a better person (character, discipline etc etc etc) in the process of which I will grow in the Faith. It is just that I have experienced what a whole lot of faith preaching can do if one is not big (read: mature) enough a person to let the faith be a foundation for the house (/the character) which in turn facilitates faith as a factor when you exit your house to meet people or when you invite people in. -to turn to metaphors (which I strictly forbid anyone to use/quote/think of out of the given context!)
As far as the "STOP LOOKING FOR IT IN PEOPLE" comment - sure, it was a bit harsh and I did have to gather myself together to make myself answer it but the answer is, that I certainly have stopped looking for it in people in having drawn away from everyone 'cept the aforementioned 2 friends and my family. I'm just aware that people around it would make it a whole lot easier and maybe even speed up the process a little!
Anja: Love you.. :)
I do not believe that I wrote it in all caps. I was just trying to share honestly what is helping me through this ongoing process and I did not mean to try to fix it by being "all humble"--what I meant by that passage is, think about it, sorry if it doesn't apply, but if you think about it and it does, good luck to you. And I did experience bloggers remorse---but not for sharing my idea. It was for sharing it where perhaps some people couldn't take it with a grain of salt.
commentator: wowhee, things are heating up in the velodrome tonite, people!
Anon. don't take it harshly - consider it a lion/cub thing, eh? ;)
I took your point and I'm still thinking about it!
Hi Ivan..
min kommentar bliver på dansk.. =)
Jeg er overrasket over at læse om hvordan du har haft d, men jeg kan godt forstå dig!
Så sent som i dag, har jeg sagt til mig selv at d måske var sidste gang jeg kom i samme kirke. Jeg følte mig udenfor og utroligt alene. Ingen kom for at snakke med mig efter gudstjenesten.. måske kunne j selv have gjort mere for det, men jeg synes i hvert fald ikke d var rart at være der. Alle har deres små grupper, og hvis man ikke lige er med i noget af d, ved man ikke hvor man ska vende sig hen. Jeg ved i hvert fald ikke. Har været i en anden kirke, hvor jeg følte mig velkommen, det var dejligt. Og måske man bare skulle sige at man så begyndte at komme der!
Ej, det var ikke meningen at jeg sådan ville kritisere kirken og menneskerne der, men havde bare brug for at fortælle det til en der forstår. D tror jeg du gør.. ;)
Og så lige til sidst vil j sige at jeg håber ikke jeg er med i den gruppe der har gjort d svært og træls for dig! Undskyld hvis jeg er. Jeg regner mig i hvert fald selv for en ven af dig..
ps. håber du kommer til vores fest på lørdag.. =) (-marie)
Hey marie! :) Tak for din kommentar, og ja, jeg forstår godt dét med klikerne! Jeg forstår også godt, at man føler, det er forkert at sætte ord på det. Men kan det ikke være netop dérfor, at sådanne problemer tager så længe om at blive behandlet? Men, ak, hvad kan man gøre!?
Mon ikke det, at finde forståelse, er det første skridt på en eller anden vej?
Men hvilken kirke var det, du havde været i? Jeg har det jo nemlig på samme måde med nordby-menigheden (randers frimenighed).
Gad vide om jeg bliver opfattet som om jeg er en del af en gruppe... måske gør jeg... men jeg føler ikke selv jeg er det. Jeg tror at alt for mange oplever at de ikke selv tilhører en gruppe, men andre ser det som sådan. Eller også er jeg helt galt afmarcheret. Jeg ved det ikke, men har tit tænkt over det. Gid vi må blive bedre til at se hinanden, for det har vi alle brug for tror jeg.
I wrote my comment here
Først mange TAK Anja- det varmede mit hjerte utroligt meget!! =) Jeg er glad for at du tænker sådan om mig!
Jeg tror at det med grupperne tager meget udgangspunkt i hvad man er engageret i. Da jeg var i lovsangsgruppen følte jeg mig meget godt tilpas i kirken. Jeg snakkede med mange, og omgik dem også i fritiden. Men det er ligesom om de relationer fadede ud efter jeg gik ud af den gruppe.. Det er nok også naturligt at det gik sådan, men det er hårdt sådan at gå fra det ene til det andet, uden selv at ville det. Det var bare svært at være en del af den gruppe mennesker, når man ikke var med i gruppen længere..
Jeg er rigtig ked af at jeg har "mistet" så mange gode venskaber! Og jeg savner flere kristne venner.. bare det kunne være som i "gamle dage".. ;)
Nå, men ja, den kirke jeg snakker om, eller de, er faktisk pinsekirken og så oss nordbyen! Der har jeg følt mig velkommen, og snakket med..
Engang blev jeg fortalt, af et par som for første gang besøgte kirken (den det handler om), at der overhovedet ikke var EN ENESTE der henvendte sig til dem, og bød dem velkommen! Det er skræmmende synes jeg, og for dårligt.. Sådan ska det ikke være i en kirke!
Slut prut =)
Mark, your comments dumbfound me.. (I think I have a somewhat pathological fear of middle-aged men!) But you're right, aren't you?! Isn't it common to - as you say - go to this building to talk afterwards? Others? I think I've said enough about this..
Marie, I must admit I never thought about it deliberately when I was the worship leader. I was too busy trying to avoid all the people afterwards (which is just another ditch.) When I go there now (which is quite seldom) I seek to catch someone and sit in a quiet corner to actually get a 'real' conversation going instead of this social flirting. In that sense I feel old, that is when I feel that people move too fast for me to ease up and so I end up going home without really having talked to anyone but having thrown remarks at too many. -and that's where we're in the same boat, I guess? -and the "new couple" too? If everybody was nearly as busy as I was trying too glean some conversation out of the Sunday/Friday, I can understand why no-one talked to them!
..I think its time for someone to balance me out, please..
Hej Ivan!
Helt tilfældigt fik jeg for første gang i en måned mulighed for at bruge internet, jeg loggede på msn, det gjorde du også og vupti så jeg en "reklame" for din ret så nydelige side her,og da jeg er et tragisk tilfælde af arten nysgerrigepiger, så måtte jeg bare ind og læse hvad du havde af spændende ting herinde...
Wow, jeg må sige at jeg først blev ramt af en enorm respekt for dig, og derefter fik jeg gentagende flashbacks, hvor jeg mindes at have dannet en mening om dig på baggrund af hvad alle andre også mente og ærlig talt fik jeg kvalme over mig selv... Ivan, fra dybet af mit hjerte beder jeg dig om tilgivelse for det, I was wrong.
Bare blive ved med at søge broder, jeg tror på at du finder det og jeg tror på Gud har store planer med dig.
Thi jeg ved siger Herren, hvilke tanker jeg tænker om Ivan, tanker om fred og ikke om ulykke, at jeg må give Ivan fremtid og håb.
Jer 29:11 (tog mig den frihed at omskrive den lidt ;))
Be blessed and highly favoured
-Anina (soon to be Mrs. Kristensen)
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